So Rock Band 2 was released yesterday. Anand picked it up and I'll certainly be playing it as some point in the near future. But the release sparked a debate between my wife and I about age appropriate gaming.

Sure, it might not be a good idea to expose children to lots of murder, rape and explicit language. Not that all that stuff shouldn't be allowed in artwork and entertainment, but young children don't have the ability to understand the context of the work. As adults we have the capacity to differentiate between our own lives and the type of activities we see on TV, hear in our music, or interact with in our games.

As parents we have the responsibility to make sure our children understand reality and are able to function within the context of our current society. While children are still building the foundation of their understanding of the world, concepts ideas and images have a much higher impact on them than on adults. Beyond this, very young children tend just to repeat and imitate a lot and that can cause problems on its own.

For instance, I don't particularly have a problem with language. Any word we use has a meaning and can be effective in conveying an idea. "Bad" "dirty" and all that I believe to be misnomers. Sometimes people feel ways about stuff and need to relate that to others. Sometimes the f-bomb is the best tool to do this. But, for societal reasons, many people are offended by the use of certain words. It is thus inconsiderate for me to go around using words that other people may not be comfortable with hearing. And while I don't care if my child wishes to use any word she wants, there is the problem of her not understanding appropriateness at the ripe old age of 2.

So, while teaching someone the appropriate use of language and disallowing them the knowledge of something both result in the same outward appearance, age appropriateness of the proper parenting technique is necessary. For now, we try not to allow our daughter to learn words that she might inappropriately use to the detriment of others. This is in the same way we would not give her a knife until she comes to the point in her life where she is able to learn that stabbing herself and others with a sharp object is not a good idea without having to try it out first. It is not that knives are bad, it's just that until a certain age children are not equipped to lean how to use them well.

Yeah yeah, learning about killing and rape and cursing is bad (especially for really young ones). But there is a further issue at hand. While my wife and I (generally) agree on all the above, we diverge when it comes to some Wii games and Rock Band / Guitar Hero in particular.

Will exposing young children to games that closely imitate reality while dumbing it down and providing immediate gratification and simulated praise make children less interested in or apt to learn specialized skills like playing baseball, tennis or musical instruments? Should the interface to a video game also have an age appropriateness attached to it?

I say no. Laura says yes. Here's our point / counterpoint with me up first.

Derek's Thoughts:

I think playing games is playing games. Sure, my daughter might see me jamming out with a 5 buttoned guitar like object with a glorified light switch to "strum." She'll also see me racing a cartoon go-kart with a disembodied wheel while yelling at my wife. That's not going to make her not want to learn to drive. Doing the thing in real life has a function, and that function will have a value of its own outside the video game.

I can swing my Wii-mote at a screen and hit baseballs, but until we get holodecks (opening up a whole other debate), reality will always offer a different experience than video games. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, but they don't replace each other. There is room for both.

Adding to our specific situation, our daughter already loves guitars. She sees us play them and hears them on the radio and gets really excited. She loves plucking the strings and hearing the sound. But, of course, if she wants to play music she'll have a lot to learn. Lots of time and frustration will be part of the experience. While many have argued that Rock Band or Guitar Hero could inspire some children to want to learn an instrument, that doesn't apply here.

So could introducing Rock Band as a concept to our daughter fulfill her love of guitars enough to the point where she doesn't want to learn? Would she be so gratified by the cheering of fake crowds and the ease of pressing buttons while hearing a song spew forth that she would never want to pick up a real guitar?

I don't think so.

In fact, I believe that learning the basic ideas behind playing guitar that you can't take away from this type of game will go a long way to helping her learn guitar for real. The movement of your fingers between the buttons does help get your hands used to the types of movements you need to make when fingering a real guitar. Strumming, even though the strum bar is nothing like real strings, will absolutely teach you rhythm and timing.

My sister always wanted to play guitar. She took lessons for a long while but had a real hard time with strumming. She couldn't get it down until someone came along and was able to really teach her what it feels like to play songs the way they need to be played. I think music games can do that for people in ways that teachers often are not able.

I also don't think the cheering crowds have much to do with it. In the end there is a satisfaction we get from playing a game, and that is doing well at the game. Pleasing some digital fan isn't satisfying in the same way that pleasing a person is, but if pleasing a digital fan is part of the game then doing so still has its use.

Honestly, if we locked our daughter in a room and all she had to satisfy her was video games then I think we would have a problem. But I don't think that there is any age in which we need to worry about her replacing real experiences with video game experiences as long as we expose her to the spectrum of possibilities in the world. She will pick doing the things that she likes doing based on the things we expose her to. As long as she has access to varied experiences, she'll end up being the person she is supposed to be. If that's a rocker playing guitar, that's fine. If she ends up being a professional video game player, I think that's fine too. And I don't think they'll ever be mutually exclusive activities.

Laura's Thoughts:

Imagine a sink full of dishes. Splatters of yesterday's spaghetti have crystallized on half of the bowls, someone thought it might be a good idea to leave the peelings from lunch's cucumber experience all over the place, and an unidentifiable smell is emanating from what can only be described as the bowels of the drainpipe. And it's your turn to clean up after the meal. The usual method involves scalding hot water, copious amounts of dish soap, sore arms and a noisy dishwasher. But let's do it differently today. You pick up the first dish and run it under the water, all of the hardened food suddenly vanishing as if the faucet spews forth a magic crud-busting liquid. You place the dish into the washer and a massive crowd of young, busty teenagers screams your name. They want more. With each dish the voices swell, blinking lights indicate that you are washing a perfect load. You come to the end, shut the door, turn on the dishwasher… and a rainbow shoots out with the surge of the cheering crowd.

I don't care who you are, you will never want to wash dishes the old way again. But the joy of some tasks just isn't part of the doing. It's part of the result. And while learning how to play an instrument is not exactly like dishwashing, there are times when it will feel about as fun. When you're done, however, there's nothing quite as rewarding as having gotten that solo bridge guitar part perfectly, note for note… or the smell of lemony cleanness and a spotless kitchen.

I'm not afraid my daughter wouldn't want to pick up a guitar once she sees how fun it is to play Rock Band 2. But I would be amazed if she persevered with the real thing in the same way after experiencing the misleading rewards of the video game. I can honestly say that if you offered me an afternoon of golf or a Mario Golf disc, I'd choose the one that requires less walking. If I was told to either go join the army or play a round of Counterstrike, I wouldn't slap on a helmet. And if running the country felt at all like playing Generals or Civilization, a lot more people would be interested in the job. (Don't freak out, I know I probably crossed a few of the general publics' comfort boundaries with those last two sentences).

Not all game examples are like this, but it seems to ring true with a concept as tangible as learning an instrument. There's also so much good in learning to appreciate the joy of a task before watering it down. If my daughter wants to practice guitar and starts to really find a passion for it, there's no reason to continue to censor her video game guitar experiences.

As far as other aspects of Rock Band go, I'm not sure she should be subjected to some of the lyrics involved, either. Even if the game cuts out curse words (which I'm actually not a fan of, modifying art for the purpose of mass distribution and making money is the definition of SELLING OUT) it's still my job as her parent to not subject her to imagery like "come and drink it up from my fertility" and "drink my juice young love chug-a-lug me."

I won't apologize for having standards. As a matter of fact, if more parents had higher standards the game venders wouldn't have to be telling you what you can and can't buy according to a tiny rating box some suit slapped on the cover. I won't have to shield my kids from the ways of the world for long, but I'd be a bad parent if I didn't give them a slow exposure over their young lives.

Wrapping it up:

We won't be getting Rock Band 2. Sure, I believe what I believe. But part of good parenting is compromise. My wife feels strongly about this issue, and our policy is generally to respect the wishes of the more cautious parent at any given time. Since we both come from different backgrounds, I think this helps us cover a lot of bases.

I think our daughter's life will be just as fulfilled without Rock Band 2 in it, so it is no loss there. Plus I'll still get to play it at Anand's house, so I'm not missing out on anything either.

Certainly we aren't trained in child psychology or anything. But as parents we still need to consider all this stuff. As more and more technology enters the home, the impact this has on young children will only become more relevant. We don't have all the answers, but we do try and carefully consider these issues.

But what do you guys think?

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  • Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    she isn't exposed to either enough to know if she can get "more" enoyment from rock band or the real thing. that's a big part of my point. you're right, she isn't me, but how much sense does it make to avoid giving her access to a joy that has been part of her family tree for longer than the current living members? hey, i like video games, too. and eating. maybe i should avoid passing those joys on, as well.
  • HavocX - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    Noone have suggested that you should avoid giving her access to instruments or present them in a positive way. But you have decided to avoid giving her acess to Rock Band out of fear that she will choose it instead.

    What would you tell a parent that decided to not expose their child to music instuments because they fear it could become more interested in them than their favorite recreation Rock Band?
  • Beenthere - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link

    Ask the military why they use video war games to de-sensitize recruits. Denial does not change the negative impact that many video games have on the young or those who believe themselves to be adults.

    We live in an age when most any inappropriate behavior can be rationalized - which is quite unfortunate. One needs to look no further than the internet or prime time TV to see a complete loss of good judgment and personal values. In the quest for financial greed, the social demise of America will be rationalized by all who have a vested interest and/or poor judgment.
  • daar - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link

    ...and yet, the US military has the largest amount of young recruits
    crying about the hell of war. Killing someone in a game and someone in real life will never feel the same, what a load of bull.
  • Pottervilla - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link

    Quote: "Any word we use has a meaning and can be effective in conveying an idea."

    Do you really just use 'certain words' to convey an idea (or even should you? Do you really want people to know how you feel when you use these words? Is it edifying?), or are you actually frustrated/angry and want/need to take it out on someone/something? IMHO, the use of expletives displays a breach in self control, or in broader language, a breach in character. I will admit, I haven't been able to completely eliminate them from my own conversation(half the time I'm talking to my computer :))but it's one of my goals.

    I have nothing against all these off topic posts--as long as they don't take away from your reviews and other content. And please, (to all the editors at AnandTech) lay of the keyword dropping! If you keep this up, we will start shunning anything that says 'women' on it--legit or not.

    Remember, you asked...
  • DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    actually, i do just use "certain words" to convey an idea. most of the time i don't use them from a place of frustration or anger.

    the use of expletives is not a breach in self control -- a breach in self control is a breach in self control. i can use any of a number of "regular" words to convey ideas much more offensive than any expletive. i can do this from a place of frustration and anger in order to take it out on something or someone. if you want to be edifying for yourself, it is your own motivation and state of mind rather than the words you use that will or will not build you up. if you want to be edifying to others than the words you use may or may not have any impact on them, depending on who they are and how they feel. you can tear people down without expletives and you won't necessarily tear people down even when you do use them. being polite and considerate are two different things -- you can be considerate without being polite depending on the company you keep, but being polite is a way to assist in conveying consideration to people you do not know and are therefore unable to fully consider.

    it really isn't about the words ... its about the impact the word has on others and the intent of the person saying the word. and that can be any words at all.

  • Up2L8 - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link

    I have a 3 year old and a soon to be 2 year old.

    I have RB1 and just got RB2. I have a couple of games for the 360, but that is what I play the most by far.

    But seriously... what is wrong with waiting till the kids go to bed and play? Do you think they are going to pick up on how easy fake instruments are to play while sleeping?

    And even if they do get into the game it will probably only stimulate interest in the real thing later in life when they can take advantage of their increased hand-eye-ear coordination.
  • DerekWilson - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link

    man ... my wife and i just about pass out every night when our kid goes to bed. she's exhausting!

    but, yeah, that's not a bad idea. the only other issue is that my wife doesn't want the rock band kit cluttering up the living room ... and she doesn't think i can be organized enough to put it away every time i finish playing (and she'd be right about that)

    :-)
  • R4F43LZiN - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link

    Thats really a good question.

    My personal experience is really different from both your opinions. My father died when I had 5 years old, and when I was 10 I got my first computer. In my family, I'm the only pc enthusiast. My mother never censored me with anything. She always tough that RPGs are evil, and stuff like that, but I pretty much experienced it all when it comes to games and movies... I think that this experience made me a more open-minded person. If my mom had to pick everything that I play or see, how would I be a responsible grow up?

    Of course, the situation with your kid is waaaaay different. She's really to young to decide for herself. But hey, in some point, we all are. That brings us to another question: who the hell are we to say what other people can't do?

    Ok, I've gone a little to far here. I do agree that parents have to choose for their kids until a certain age. But then, they should help them to decide, not choose for them. It worked for me. Can it work for other people? Good question. Like the one you left for us. WHo says life has to be easy? ;)
  • Xavitar - Monday, September 15, 2008 - link

    Both you and your wife raise interesting points, Derek.

    I think video games raise interest in other activities in children rather than quench desires. In the same way that books and movies fill kids with awe and make them want to experience the real thing, so too can video games. I don't think a kid is any more likely to think to themselves, Why become an astronaut when I can just sit on my couch and play Asteroids? than they are likely to think, Why become an astronaut when I can just look at this book of photographs that NASA published? They just want to become the astronaut.

    It is a matter of providing children with an avenue of pursuit and shielding them from the negative outlook of most adults who have lived through the death of their own ambitions. Of course, it isn't quite so simple as that, but at the crux of it I really believe that video games, movies and media of all sorts are being scapegoated for an overall lack of guidance by adults. If you provide a rich and fulfilling experience for your daughter, I would have no fear that she will lack ambition. Ambition is the one thing that children possess in droves, and it is only by example that they learn to give it up. I say let her play Rock Band 2, and as she gets older, make sure she is surrounded by interesting, ambitious and driven people. People, after all, are a product of their environments, not the games they play -- unless the games become the environment, which is entirely in your hands as parents.

    Thanks for the interesting read. That was the last thing I expected to see on the front page of Anandtech!

    Now how about some more Lucid Hydra 100 goodness? Go twist their arm, we need independent tests! I hear they are close to (or beyond) final silicon!? I wonder how long until they have beta drivers available for public consumption... Mmmmmm, consumption.

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