Parenting And Rock Band 2: Why I'm Not Getting The Game
by Derek Wilson on September 15, 2008 5:25 AM EST- Posted in
- Dell
So Rock Band 2 was released yesterday. Anand picked it up and I'll certainly be playing it as some point in the near future. But the release sparked a debate between my wife and I about age appropriate gaming.
Sure, it might not be a good idea to expose children to lots of murder, rape and explicit language. Not that all that stuff shouldn't be allowed in artwork and entertainment, but young children don't have the ability to understand the context of the work. As adults we have the capacity to differentiate between our own lives and the type of activities we see on TV, hear in our music, or interact with in our games.
As parents we have the responsibility to make sure our children understand reality and are able to function within the context of our current society. While children are still building the foundation of their understanding of the world, concepts ideas and images have a much higher impact on them than on adults. Beyond this, very young children tend just to repeat and imitate a lot and that can cause problems on its own.
For instance, I don't particularly have a problem with language. Any word we use has a meaning and can be effective in conveying an idea. "Bad" "dirty" and all that I believe to be misnomers. Sometimes people feel ways about stuff and need to relate that to others. Sometimes the f-bomb is the best tool to do this. But, for societal reasons, many people are offended by the use of certain words. It is thus inconsiderate for me to go around using words that other people may not be comfortable with hearing. And while I don't care if my child wishes to use any word she wants, there is the problem of her not understanding appropriateness at the ripe old age of 2.
So, while teaching someone the appropriate use of language and disallowing them the knowledge of something both result in the same outward appearance, age appropriateness of the proper parenting technique is necessary. For now, we try not to allow our daughter to learn words that she might inappropriately use to the detriment of others. This is in the same way we would not give her a knife until she comes to the point in her life where she is able to learn that stabbing herself and others with a sharp object is not a good idea without having to try it out first. It is not that knives are bad, it's just that until a certain age children are not equipped to lean how to use them well.
Yeah yeah, learning about killing and rape and cursing is bad (especially for really young ones). But there is a further issue at hand. While my wife and I (generally) agree on all the above, we diverge when it comes to some Wii games and Rock Band / Guitar Hero in particular.
Will exposing young children to games that closely imitate reality while dumbing it down and providing immediate gratification and simulated praise make children less interested in or apt to learn specialized skills like playing baseball, tennis or musical instruments? Should the interface to a video game also have an age appropriateness attached to it?
I say no. Laura says yes. Here's our point / counterpoint with me up first.
Derek's Thoughts:
I think playing games is playing games. Sure, my daughter might see me jamming out with a 5 buttoned guitar like object with a glorified light switch to "strum." She'll also see me racing a cartoon go-kart with a disembodied wheel while yelling at my wife. That's not going to make her not want to learn to drive. Doing the thing in real life has a function, and that function will have a value of its own outside the video game.
I can swing my Wii-mote at a screen and hit baseballs, but until we get holodecks (opening up a whole other debate), reality will always offer a different experience than video games. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, but they don't replace each other. There is room for both.
Adding to our specific situation, our daughter already loves guitars. She sees us play them and hears them on the radio and gets really excited. She loves plucking the strings and hearing the sound. But, of course, if she wants to play music she'll have a lot to learn. Lots of time and frustration will be part of the experience. While many have argued that Rock Band or Guitar Hero could inspire some children to want to learn an instrument, that doesn't apply here.
So could introducing Rock Band as a concept to our daughter fulfill her love of guitars enough to the point where she doesn't want to learn? Would she be so gratified by the cheering of fake crowds and the ease of pressing buttons while hearing a song spew forth that she would never want to pick up a real guitar?
I don't think so.
In fact, I believe that learning the basic ideas behind playing guitar that you can't take away from this type of game will go a long way to helping her learn guitar for real. The movement of your fingers between the buttons does help get your hands used to the types of movements you need to make when fingering a real guitar. Strumming, even though the strum bar is nothing like real strings, will absolutely teach you rhythm and timing.
My sister always wanted to play guitar. She took lessons for a long while but had a real hard time with strumming. She couldn't get it down until someone came along and was able to really teach her what it feels like to play songs the way they need to be played. I think music games can do that for people in ways that teachers often are not able.
I also don't think the cheering crowds have much to do with it. In the end there is a satisfaction we get from playing a game, and that is doing well at the game. Pleasing some digital fan isn't satisfying in the same way that pleasing a person is, but if pleasing a digital fan is part of the game then doing so still has its use.
Honestly, if we locked our daughter in a room and all she had to satisfy her was video games then I think we would have a problem. But I don't think that there is any age in which we need to worry about her replacing real experiences with video game experiences as long as we expose her to the spectrum of possibilities in the world. She will pick doing the things that she likes doing based on the things we expose her to. As long as she has access to varied experiences, she'll end up being the person she is supposed to be. If that's a rocker playing guitar, that's fine. If she ends up being a professional video game player, I think that's fine too. And I don't think they'll ever be mutually exclusive activities.
Laura's Thoughts:
Imagine a sink full of dishes. Splatters of yesterday's spaghetti have crystallized on half of the bowls, someone thought it might be a good idea to leave the peelings from lunch's cucumber experience all over the place, and an unidentifiable smell is emanating from what can only be described as the bowels of the drainpipe. And it's your turn to clean up after the meal. The usual method involves scalding hot water, copious amounts of dish soap, sore arms and a noisy dishwasher. But let's do it differently today. You pick up the first dish and run it under the water, all of the hardened food suddenly vanishing as if the faucet spews forth a magic crud-busting liquid. You place the dish into the washer and a massive crowd of young, busty teenagers screams your name. They want more. With each dish the voices swell, blinking lights indicate that you are washing a perfect load. You come to the end, shut the door, turn on the dishwasher… and a rainbow shoots out with the surge of the cheering crowd.
I don't care who you are, you will never want to wash dishes the old way again. But the joy of some tasks just isn't part of the doing. It's part of the result. And while learning how to play an instrument is not exactly like dishwashing, there are times when it will feel about as fun. When you're done, however, there's nothing quite as rewarding as having gotten that solo bridge guitar part perfectly, note for note… or the smell of lemony cleanness and a spotless kitchen.
I'm not afraid my daughter wouldn't want to pick up a guitar once she sees how fun it is to play Rock Band 2. But I would be amazed if she persevered with the real thing in the same way after experiencing the misleading rewards of the video game. I can honestly say that if you offered me an afternoon of golf or a Mario Golf disc, I'd choose the one that requires less walking. If I was told to either go join the army or play a round of Counterstrike, I wouldn't slap on a helmet. And if running the country felt at all like playing Generals or Civilization, a lot more people would be interested in the job. (Don't freak out, I know I probably crossed a few of the general publics' comfort boundaries with those last two sentences).
Not all game examples are like this, but it seems to ring true with a concept as tangible as learning an instrument. There's also so much good in learning to appreciate the joy of a task before watering it down. If my daughter wants to practice guitar and starts to really find a passion for it, there's no reason to continue to censor her video game guitar experiences.
As far as other aspects of Rock Band go, I'm not sure she should be subjected to some of the lyrics involved, either. Even if the game cuts out curse words (which I'm actually not a fan of, modifying art for the purpose of mass distribution and making money is the definition of SELLING OUT) it's still my job as her parent to not subject her to imagery like "come and drink it up from my fertility" and "drink my juice young love chug-a-lug me."
I won't apologize for having standards. As a matter of fact, if more parents had higher standards the game venders wouldn't have to be telling you what you can and can't buy according to a tiny rating box some suit slapped on the cover. I won't have to shield my kids from the ways of the world for long, but I'd be a bad parent if I didn't give them a slow exposure over their young lives.
Wrapping it up:
We won't be getting Rock Band 2. Sure, I believe what I believe. But part of good parenting is compromise. My wife feels strongly about this issue, and our policy is generally to respect the wishes of the more cautious parent at any given time. Since we both come from different backgrounds, I think this helps us cover a lot of bases.
I think our daughter's life will be just as fulfilled without Rock Band 2 in it, so it is no loss there. Plus I'll still get to play it at Anand's house, so I'm not missing out on anything either.
Certainly we aren't trained in child psychology or anything. But as parents we still need to consider all this stuff. As more and more technology enters the home, the impact this has on young children will only become more relevant. We don't have all the answers, but we do try and carefully consider these issues.
But what do you guys think?
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DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
just to point something else out that people need to consider ...mastering real instruments in infinitely harder than mastering rock band on expert.
playing rock band is, at once, easier to play and harder to master if you have already learned an instrument (because you'll always want to play the song the way you learned it).
kids who think, because they tried to a certain extent and mastered rock band on expert, that they just as easily master guitar will be very discouraged. it will take a lot more effort and a lot more dedication with a lot less fun and a lot less reward -- until they cross certain thresholds of drudge work that is.
BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I agree with you that it can be technically difficult - and even though I never had the time to follow through with mastering the real guitar, I stopped not out of discouragement that it was difficult, but out of a lack of time. The guitar is an incredibly frustrating instrument to learn in the first place. But there was never a time when I thought to myself "I can't do this", and mastering difficult video games (long before RB/GH existed) was one of the things that helped me understand that. I believe that's where the parents can step in, to bridge that gap - especially in a household full of musicians, playing a real instrument along with you guys will I'm sure be an incredibly rewarding AND encouraging experience.BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
An example:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yEjyuw42YY">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yEjyuw42YY
Look at the smile on his face. Its as if he's mocking us, because its just so easy to him. He's so good that he doesnt need to look at the screen.
Then look at this "kid", probably somewhere in high school.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NarTQm7tgjY">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NarTQm7tgjY
He fails, and what does he do? Blame the guitar, smash it, and run away.
I guarantee you that first kid isnt going to blame something else - he's going to keep at it until he gets it right, and then mock the rest of us - not because he has some innate skill, but because he has the perseverance that we dont.
Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
it is a wonderful thing to see a small child ripping through something an adult had no patience for, and that is definitely an image that happens frequently because of the human brain's sharper learning capabilities at the early ages. but imagine how awesome it would be if that kid spent all that time working at a real guitar instead. he'd be on his way to jimi hendrix levels of prodigy fame.my daughter is already showing interest in not only hearing guitar but also playing it. the very first time she sat with one in her lap (full sized, no less) she wrapped her left hand around the neck and strummed at the strings with her right. at 1.5 years old, i considered that pretty impressive. her dad is a drummer and her mom is a pianist, but both of us have been in bands playing our own and other instruments, including guitar and bass. we put a lot of value in those experiences, too.
i'm a victim of what i hope to shield my child from in many ways. most of my creative outlets are fulfilled by video games, not supplemented. i have paintings i haven't gotten back to in years, but if i haven't completed a game of black and white i have trouble sleeping at night. derek's different, he enjoys the qualities of the game and even celebrates the levels of skill required to create it. but i think people can have a predisposition to one or the other. my whole family, (brothers sisters and parents), has issues with dependencies - addictive personalities, so to speak - and that can manifest in any form, including video game addictions. it's possible i'll pass that trait to my kids, so i'd like to give them a fighting chance.
don't get me wrong, i don't intend to censor what my kids can play as far as video games go for their whole lives, but i'd like to let them explore the more difficult, real, rewarding things before turning them into fun games to pass time. perhaps i project too much... but i continue to lean on the side of caution, as more of the mistakes made by parents around me seem to have been caused by complacency. (yes, i know overprotection is just as bad, but there IS a happy middle ground and i'm searching for it).
BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
True, there may be a certain element of the child being able to learn certain things quicker, but I don't believe that is what the core of his success is. The point I'm trying to make transcends the guitar and video games.From my own experiences, a story that had to be told back to me because I was too young to remember: When I was 4 years old, I saw my dad's old chess pieces, and he showed me how to play. He obviously took it easy on me, but I sensed even then that he was letting me win, and I told him to play fair. He naturally whooped my ass, over and over. I practically went away crying, upset that I'd never be able to beat him.
The next day, I found a brand new copy of the game "battle chess" waiting for me. Sure, I was disappointed it wasnt mega man, but he just told me he found it on the street and thought I would like it. I played that game to death - for a few weeks, he wasnt "in the mood" to play "real" chess, but he must have been watching me play out of the corner of his eye, and when he was eventually "in the mood", he told me that was one of the toughest games of chess he ever played - he won, but that winning streak didnt last more than a day or two. It was naturally a great bonding experience as well.
Apparently, a bit after that, I saw my dad reading, and I told him that I bet I could "beat him at reading". He taught me the alphabet, left a few books lying around, and you can imagine the rest. To this day, I dont have any recollection of ever learning how to read - it was just something I knew how to do by the time I could remember. I do remember the way at 6 that my 1st grade teacher scolded me for not doing my assignment because I read "run dog run" in 2 seconds flat. I read the entire 1st grade library in about 30 minutes to her, one book after another, and back then I didnt understand wtf the big deal was. They told my parents I was a genius apparently.
Every time I struggled in a class, job, or with anything else, and I talked to him about it, he'd bring up battle chess and reading, reminding me that if I could be as good as things as adults while still a child by just doing things, that naturally I could do anything. I've always kept those experiences in the back of my mind, and I know it's enabled me to accomplish things that I otherwise would have given up on.
Obviously music is something very important to your family, but I believe that you could use the game to enable the experience rather than water it down. I can certainly understand the trepidation with giving a child rock band, with the fear it would make it seem so easy. But you have the power to ensure that what the child accomplishes in the game is translated to the real world, to the real guitar. A 2 year old *can* play RB, but can hardly handle a real guitar for a few more years. She can learn very basic skills such as rhythm as timing, and more importantly, you can all play *together as a family*. Let her get better than you at the game, and absolutely do not forget to raise the difficulty of the game as it becomes too easy. Make sure she realizes the reason she's better is not because its "just a game", but because she practiced. The experience can either be one of achievement over adversity (while having fun together, no less), rather than taking the easy way out.
I'm sure with that experience of accomplishment, she'd not only be very eager to play the real guitar, but would have a leg up not only with basic skills, but with the knowledge that she can do it with practice. She's lucky to have people around that can help her learn a real instrument very effectively. You also have the rather unique situation that you're all musicians, so not only can you play the game together, but you can play real music together, when she's ready.
I dont know how, who or what inspired the two of you to pick up instruments, but I dont think it'd be crazy to assume the encouragement of your parents had something to do with it. Especially at 2, the game is what you allow it to be, and you have the ability to make it a positive rather than negative experience.
Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
i think you make a very good point. it's possible she would master the game better than her parents and be so impressed with how it feels that seeing her parents pick up real instruments will give her a desire to master them better than us as well. the drive to succeed is often made sharper by knowing how it feels to succeed already. this is one of the first points that's giving me pause about my opinion. i appreciate your comment!BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
you know, now that I've had some more time to think about it, I feel there's quite a bit more I can add to the discussion, but suffice it to say that articulating it all would beore than a little difficult on my iPhone at work. I think your fears of instant gratification are certainly justified, but you'd be missin out on an incredible opportunity if you let that fear (which you can do something about) prevent you from exploiting the many positives that you may be overlookk g which can come from this game in the context of your daughter and family. If you can deal with any more of my rambling, I'll post back later tonight. :)Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
post away -- i also appreciate the chess story. that's a very good point i hadn't as of yet considered.thanks.
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
oops ... that was supposed to be me above -- i sat down at lauras computer and didn't realize she was logged in instead of me ...a5cent - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
If Laura has absolutely no interest in joining the navy, then her preference to play counterstrike is obvious, but the analogy is useless. The analogy only makes sense if Laura has a serious desire to join the navy, but hasn't because counterstrike provides enough of the experience and gratification that sparked her interest in the first place.That counterstrike could provide enough of the experience and gratification of actually being in the navy is something I find very hard to believe. I would rather doubt she ever really wanted to be in the navy anyway (or learn how to play a guitar). However, Laura seems like a smart person so I'd have to take her word for it. Although I was of Derek's opinion before reading this article, I'd have to accept Laura's point of view now, although I would ask her to reconsider the validity of the examples she provides.
As an example, I don't think the dish washing analogy applies at all. Dish washing is too much of a mundane, daily chore that anyone would feel much gratification from having acquired the skill. Everyone would prefer the "magic crud-busting liquid" and nothing would be lost because of it. Or have you ever heard of someone refusing to use the dishwasher because they want to hone their manual dish washing skills?