Parenting And Rock Band 2: Why I'm Not Getting The Game
by Derek Wilson on September 15, 2008 5:25 AM EST- Posted in
- Dell
So Rock Band 2 was released yesterday. Anand picked it up and I'll certainly be playing it as some point in the near future. But the release sparked a debate between my wife and I about age appropriate gaming.
Sure, it might not be a good idea to expose children to lots of murder, rape and explicit language. Not that all that stuff shouldn't be allowed in artwork and entertainment, but young children don't have the ability to understand the context of the work. As adults we have the capacity to differentiate between our own lives and the type of activities we see on TV, hear in our music, or interact with in our games.
As parents we have the responsibility to make sure our children understand reality and are able to function within the context of our current society. While children are still building the foundation of their understanding of the world, concepts ideas and images have a much higher impact on them than on adults. Beyond this, very young children tend just to repeat and imitate a lot and that can cause problems on its own.
For instance, I don't particularly have a problem with language. Any word we use has a meaning and can be effective in conveying an idea. "Bad" "dirty" and all that I believe to be misnomers. Sometimes people feel ways about stuff and need to relate that to others. Sometimes the f-bomb is the best tool to do this. But, for societal reasons, many people are offended by the use of certain words. It is thus inconsiderate for me to go around using words that other people may not be comfortable with hearing. And while I don't care if my child wishes to use any word she wants, there is the problem of her not understanding appropriateness at the ripe old age of 2.
So, while teaching someone the appropriate use of language and disallowing them the knowledge of something both result in the same outward appearance, age appropriateness of the proper parenting technique is necessary. For now, we try not to allow our daughter to learn words that she might inappropriately use to the detriment of others. This is in the same way we would not give her a knife until she comes to the point in her life where she is able to learn that stabbing herself and others with a sharp object is not a good idea without having to try it out first. It is not that knives are bad, it's just that until a certain age children are not equipped to lean how to use them well.
Yeah yeah, learning about killing and rape and cursing is bad (especially for really young ones). But there is a further issue at hand. While my wife and I (generally) agree on all the above, we diverge when it comes to some Wii games and Rock Band / Guitar Hero in particular.
Will exposing young children to games that closely imitate reality while dumbing it down and providing immediate gratification and simulated praise make children less interested in or apt to learn specialized skills like playing baseball, tennis or musical instruments? Should the interface to a video game also have an age appropriateness attached to it?
I say no. Laura says yes. Here's our point / counterpoint with me up first.
Derek's Thoughts:
I think playing games is playing games. Sure, my daughter might see me jamming out with a 5 buttoned guitar like object with a glorified light switch to "strum." She'll also see me racing a cartoon go-kart with a disembodied wheel while yelling at my wife. That's not going to make her not want to learn to drive. Doing the thing in real life has a function, and that function will have a value of its own outside the video game.
I can swing my Wii-mote at a screen and hit baseballs, but until we get holodecks (opening up a whole other debate), reality will always offer a different experience than video games. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, but they don't replace each other. There is room for both.
Adding to our specific situation, our daughter already loves guitars. She sees us play them and hears them on the radio and gets really excited. She loves plucking the strings and hearing the sound. But, of course, if she wants to play music she'll have a lot to learn. Lots of time and frustration will be part of the experience. While many have argued that Rock Band or Guitar Hero could inspire some children to want to learn an instrument, that doesn't apply here.
So could introducing Rock Band as a concept to our daughter fulfill her love of guitars enough to the point where she doesn't want to learn? Would she be so gratified by the cheering of fake crowds and the ease of pressing buttons while hearing a song spew forth that she would never want to pick up a real guitar?
I don't think so.
In fact, I believe that learning the basic ideas behind playing guitar that you can't take away from this type of game will go a long way to helping her learn guitar for real. The movement of your fingers between the buttons does help get your hands used to the types of movements you need to make when fingering a real guitar. Strumming, even though the strum bar is nothing like real strings, will absolutely teach you rhythm and timing.
My sister always wanted to play guitar. She took lessons for a long while but had a real hard time with strumming. She couldn't get it down until someone came along and was able to really teach her what it feels like to play songs the way they need to be played. I think music games can do that for people in ways that teachers often are not able.
I also don't think the cheering crowds have much to do with it. In the end there is a satisfaction we get from playing a game, and that is doing well at the game. Pleasing some digital fan isn't satisfying in the same way that pleasing a person is, but if pleasing a digital fan is part of the game then doing so still has its use.
Honestly, if we locked our daughter in a room and all she had to satisfy her was video games then I think we would have a problem. But I don't think that there is any age in which we need to worry about her replacing real experiences with video game experiences as long as we expose her to the spectrum of possibilities in the world. She will pick doing the things that she likes doing based on the things we expose her to. As long as she has access to varied experiences, she'll end up being the person she is supposed to be. If that's a rocker playing guitar, that's fine. If she ends up being a professional video game player, I think that's fine too. And I don't think they'll ever be mutually exclusive activities.
Laura's Thoughts:
Imagine a sink full of dishes. Splatters of yesterday's spaghetti have crystallized on half of the bowls, someone thought it might be a good idea to leave the peelings from lunch's cucumber experience all over the place, and an unidentifiable smell is emanating from what can only be described as the bowels of the drainpipe. And it's your turn to clean up after the meal. The usual method involves scalding hot water, copious amounts of dish soap, sore arms and a noisy dishwasher. But let's do it differently today. You pick up the first dish and run it under the water, all of the hardened food suddenly vanishing as if the faucet spews forth a magic crud-busting liquid. You place the dish into the washer and a massive crowd of young, busty teenagers screams your name. They want more. With each dish the voices swell, blinking lights indicate that you are washing a perfect load. You come to the end, shut the door, turn on the dishwasher… and a rainbow shoots out with the surge of the cheering crowd.
I don't care who you are, you will never want to wash dishes the old way again. But the joy of some tasks just isn't part of the doing. It's part of the result. And while learning how to play an instrument is not exactly like dishwashing, there are times when it will feel about as fun. When you're done, however, there's nothing quite as rewarding as having gotten that solo bridge guitar part perfectly, note for note… or the smell of lemony cleanness and a spotless kitchen.
I'm not afraid my daughter wouldn't want to pick up a guitar once she sees how fun it is to play Rock Band 2. But I would be amazed if she persevered with the real thing in the same way after experiencing the misleading rewards of the video game. I can honestly say that if you offered me an afternoon of golf or a Mario Golf disc, I'd choose the one that requires less walking. If I was told to either go join the army or play a round of Counterstrike, I wouldn't slap on a helmet. And if running the country felt at all like playing Generals or Civilization, a lot more people would be interested in the job. (Don't freak out, I know I probably crossed a few of the general publics' comfort boundaries with those last two sentences).
Not all game examples are like this, but it seems to ring true with a concept as tangible as learning an instrument. There's also so much good in learning to appreciate the joy of a task before watering it down. If my daughter wants to practice guitar and starts to really find a passion for it, there's no reason to continue to censor her video game guitar experiences.
As far as other aspects of Rock Band go, I'm not sure she should be subjected to some of the lyrics involved, either. Even if the game cuts out curse words (which I'm actually not a fan of, modifying art for the purpose of mass distribution and making money is the definition of SELLING OUT) it's still my job as her parent to not subject her to imagery like "come and drink it up from my fertility" and "drink my juice young love chug-a-lug me."
I won't apologize for having standards. As a matter of fact, if more parents had higher standards the game venders wouldn't have to be telling you what you can and can't buy according to a tiny rating box some suit slapped on the cover. I won't have to shield my kids from the ways of the world for long, but I'd be a bad parent if I didn't give them a slow exposure over their young lives.
Wrapping it up:
We won't be getting Rock Band 2. Sure, I believe what I believe. But part of good parenting is compromise. My wife feels strongly about this issue, and our policy is generally to respect the wishes of the more cautious parent at any given time. Since we both come from different backgrounds, I think this helps us cover a lot of bases.
I think our daughter's life will be just as fulfilled without Rock Band 2 in it, so it is no loss there. Plus I'll still get to play it at Anand's house, so I'm not missing out on anything either.
Certainly we aren't trained in child psychology or anything. But as parents we still need to consider all this stuff. As more and more technology enters the home, the impact this has on young children will only become more relevant. We don't have all the answers, but we do try and carefully consider these issues.
But what do you guys think?
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HavocX - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
"the toddlers that never hurt themselves on the machetes probably couldn't pick them up. have you ever lifted one?"You don't need to be able to pick one up to hurt yourself on it.
"ut i suppose in the same way my child has been around the exposed phone jack her whole life now and hasn't been zapped by it."
The electricity in the phone jack is too weak to hurt anyone.
Laura Wilson - Thursday, September 18, 2008 - link
"You don't need to be able to pick one up to hurt yourself on it."honestly, yes you kind of do. i've been around them, my brother and i used to slice through the forests behind our mountain home with machetes as kids. note, "kids", not toddlers. my parents made sure we knew how to handle them before setting us free with them.
"The electricity in the phone jack is too weak to hurt anyone."
correct. that's why i used the term "zapped" instead of "killed." you've been helpful, yet again.
Tigerlight - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
Like movies, books, and other media outlets I am prepared to argue that video games can introduce an interest in becoming something as opposed to satisfying that interest.Video games can introduce into a child's life the knowledge of the existence of a career/activity that perhaps they did know was an option for them, and inspire them to actually engage in it.
Yes, at this time your child is a bit young to be looking at career paths, hehe, but as with everything else, SOME video games do have an arguably valid place in education.
But at the end of the day, it's all personal choice what you consider appropriate.
Peeling - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
Imagine you open a book. Inside there are large, colourful illustrations with only a few simple words to read on each page. The entire story requires only a few minutes of your time, and within that short period you get to see amazing things, maybe get a little big scared (in a good, exciting way), but in the end everybody lives happily ever after. And when you're finished, mummy and daddy smother you with hugs and kisses and tell you how clever you are. Surely, nobody would ever want to sit down for hours with some brick-thick slab of unbroken text, not after being exposed to these dumbed-down feel-good stories at such a young, impressionable age.Clearly this is the most abject nonsense. We don't sit our toddlers down with Faulkner, and nor do we keep them illiterate to preserve the character-building challenge of struggling through it later in life.
My niece was introduced to the guitar through Guitar Hero. She now owns a real instrument, takes lessons, and practices on her own initiative, having been switched on to something she loves. She is if anything more likely to persevere now that she has a taste of what she's persevering for.
As for the game being easy - methinks you've never tried the tougher tracks on 'expert'. I defy anyone to claim that Chris Chike is doing something unremarkable. There's challenge aplenty - the only difference is that when you're starting out you are not forced to plink-plonk through turgid, off-putting beginner riffs; you get to play something worth listening to. And contrary to your wife's concerns, this does not result in children eschewing the harder levels of play in favour of endless easy-mode hits of simulated applause. Why? The same reason I don't read See Spot Run for pleasure anymore.
BD2003 - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
The way I see it, there are really two separate issues here regarding her wanting to learn a "real" instrument instead of the "watered down" version. There's the genuine love of music, something clearly intrinsically valuable. And then there's the aspect of overcoming that initial obstacle, also a valuable lesson to learn that transcends the music itself. I think music games can help on both counts.The challenge and frustration has basically already been covered - although the challenge is learning the fake instrument rather than the real one, the same core lesson doesnt change - you can do anything anyone else can, practice makes perfect - keep at it, and you'll get it right. IMO learning that early was probably the single most valuable thing I've ever kept in my mind throughout my entire life.
Then there's the love of music. That also needs to be learned, but I dont believe that there is any need for it to be intrinsically difficult when there are so many aides to make it an easy and enjoyable process. Its the appreciation itself thats valuable. The best students of any subject are those that enjoy what theyre learning, and it would be a shame to hinder that enjoyment by an insistence on making it as difficult as possible.
Listening to baby einstein tapes won't make a child a genius - I didnt learn to read by having my parents read to me, I learned to read by READING. Your child is not going to learn much about music by listening to you guys play or by strumming open strings and listening to the discordance - otherwise we'd all be rock gods from all the music we've listened to on the radio our entire lives. She *needs* to participate in the process to learn *anything*, no matter how basic a level, and I honestly cant think of any better age appropriate way for a very young child to do so than these games.
Theres no question that rock band is watered down, but thats exactly why you should want it! The context here is extremely important. Realize that we're dealing with not only a child, but a VERY young child. I question even the ability of a 2-year old to take on rock band, but playing a guitar or the drums at her age is absolutely beyond her physical ability. RB is essentially fisher-price music, which is exactly why we enjoy it - it allows us to participate in something we normally couldnt. Unless we know an instrument, we're all as clueless as your 2-year old when it comes to these things, so naturally we start at the bottom, where it's most enjoyable. Keep in mind that its only instant gratification to us adults - easy mode will be an uphill battle for a young child in RB, but at least they can physically take it on. Pondering how much closer to hendrix she would be if she spent more of her time playing a real guitar is a question to ask of a 12 year old, not a 2 year old - I'd be impressed if she could actually lift a guitar up at 2.
I'm far from a child psychologist, but my first degree was a bachelors in psychology, dealing primarily with cognition, memory and learning, with a side dose of child psych, so I feel like I can speak with a little bit of authority on the subject. Young children may appear stupid and clueless, but the truth is so far from that in reality. It may seem silly when a child throws things around and giggles, but what theyre actually doing is learning how the physics of the world work. Learning to walk is an incredibly difficult process not because theyre stupid, but because it involves the coordination of hundreds of muscles, and it takes a long time to get that straight. Most everyone is still a little in awe when they see a young child pick up language so incredibly fast, but thats hardly taxing - thats what theyre built to do. There is a certain trigger in the brain that kicks into overdrive around 2-4, where their learning ability is almost superhuman. They could easily learn two or more languages at the same time and hardly be confused by the time theyre fluent in speech, and theyll be bilingual for life.
Knowing how to read before I could remember was incredibly enabling for me academically at a young age. If your child were to understand the basics of music before she could remember, that would forever be a part of her, but she'll NEVER learn that by just listening - she has to DO. So you say you want your child to be the next hendrix - why not give her a step up with the tools available to her, and nudge her in the right direction when real instruments become age appropriate? Beyond the achievement factor, the prior knowledge of basic music theory will undoubtedly be invaluable to the learning process, as its one less simultaneous hurdle to overcome. Even if I didnt know what the bigger words meant, being able to pronounce them was one less thing to deal with when I had to actually learn their meanings.
To get realy analogous - as it's said, you have to learn to walk before you can run. You hope for her to be a world class sprinter. Do you really think that she'll benefit in the long run if you deprived her of a baby walker, because you wanted her to learn to walk the hard way?
You know, I've always sensed a little bit of resentment on the part of musicians when it comes to these games. Its almost not fair in some ways, that you had to put all this hard work in just to play a scale half decently, and now kids and adult douchebags come along and get to have all the fun for free without putting in the work. Realize that aside from a few really delusional douchebags, we're still all impressed by those who can play real instruments. We only get a small taste of that more fufilling enjoyment real musicians have, and we all know it. For many, thats enough - and I see nothing wrong with that. For a LOT of others, thats the spark that gets us to take the next step, but few us of would ever take it to the point where we'd start our own band.
But you already have one at home.
Teenagers want to do the opposite of their parents, young kids IDOLIZE their parents. Your fears of your daughter being satiated by RB and never wanting to touch a real instrument are completely unwarranted IMO - I'd bet a fairly large sum of money that the outcome would be the total polar opposite, and it would be that *absolute best thing* that you could do if your primary concern is fostering a love of music. Keep in mind that these games are difficulty appropriate for her very young age - unlike us adults or even a 6-year old, she will NOT get *instant* gratification from them, and if so, not for long if you encourage her to raise the difficulty. Theres no way in the world a child that understands the basics of music because she was able to learn that early, sees their parents playing music, and is surrounded by instruments is not going to pick up an instrument and not only enjoy it, but excel at it.
Although the OP has primarily dealt with RB, and even though I still that that until she's at least 3-4 she could barely play any of these games at all, I think that the upcoming guitar hero: world tour is even better as a learning tool. In RB, youre a semi-active participant in the song, but the music creator in GHWT goes one step further - using very basic toy instruments, genuine music can be created. Hardly the same as a real guitar, but here is where the fundamentals of music theory such as scales can make their way into her mind before she even understands the concept of learning and teaching. Picture this: Derek's on the *real* drums, Laura's on *real* rhythm guitar, and your little girl is hooked up to the TV, jamming along with you guys on a major C-scale before she even knows how to complete a full sentence...and it wont take long for her to figure the difference between harmony and disharmony, and that can hardly be a bad thing for her musical development in the long run.
The last thing I want to emphasize is that you have total control over the message with a young child. You decide whether she listens to avenged sevenfold or the doors. If one of you is singing, you get to decide whether that f-bomb gets dropped or not - it's not like she can read the lyrics. While there still remains something noble about learning the things hard way, I hardly think that principal is worth giving up on such an opportunity to foster enjoyment of music at a young age. The mere fact that she's a human being will ensure that she'll have have plenty of seemingly insurmountable challenges in her life - music doesnt necessarily need to be one of them. I'm sure she'll be fine either way, but when I have my own little ones, I look forward to my kid kicking my ass in rock band, and who knows whatll happen from there?
Sorry for the overly long essay. I would have posted earlier but I was too busy doing "hands-on research" for it with my GF. :P I'm the gamer, so I dig the challenge of the expert guitar - she's the singer, I guess those singing lessons she got while she was a little toddler paid off. :)
DerekWilson - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
i started reading but had to skim -- just wanted to make one point while i have a second.we never let our child use a baby walker --
they are banned in canada and docs all over recommend against them because they delay development of important motor skills. the child learns to walk /in a walker/ rather than learning to walk (Which isn't the same thing and learning the one can be detrimental to the other) -- balance and muscle development doesn't happen at a normal pace when a child uses a walker ... will it end the world? no. but will it stunt their development? yes.
that ends up being, in fact, an apt analogy for why we would want to delay exposure to rock band. because it might negatively impact her development. in the rock band case, we are unsure of how this may or may not happen, but the possibility seems plausible. and, again, since the cost/benefit analysis really doesn't come out in favor of taking the chance (rock band is just a game after all), i see no problem in not bringing it into our home.
i'll read the rest later when i've got time and respond.
BD2003 - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link
well, baby walkers are banned not because they stunt mental growth, but because they make it much easier for a child to *physically* injure themselves. It's a pretty bad analogy in retrospect because unlike music, walking is not an optional skill - the child must learn it out of necessity, a love for walking is hardly a factor. I've never heard of a child that just plain failed to grasp the skill of walking, yet I've seen droves that never got music (myself included).You seem to focusing on it's potemtial detriments for the childs physical abilty to handle an instrument. - that's certainly up to some debate, but what I'm trying to get across is more about mental and cognitive ability. I hardly think rb can do much for her physically, but I'd find it a bit of a stretch to buy that it would stunt her development in any significant way.
DerekWilson - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link
have you ever played warcraft? starcraft? any RTS?i ask because there are some very fundamental similarities with raising a child.
in RTS games there is a tech tree that must be followed. you need to attain certain buildings or units before you can attain others. in child development, the child must attain certain skills that allow them to learn others.
walkers actually do stunt development and delay walking for children. this is a fact. without the skill of walking, they cannot learn other skills. at a young age, the growth and development of the brain is huge, and delays in learning certain skills (from the optimal potential that child has) could certainly negatively impact things.
you just can't win if you don't build things as fast as possible and in a certain order in an RTS. and i want our child to have the best chance she can at life, so we try and make sure she learns new skills as early as she is able.
yes, all children will learn to walk eventually. but if learning to walk later means that she doesn't learn another skill before she's done with this early developmental phase, then that effects the rest of her life.
look at languages -- these early years are the best for children to learn multiple languages (and we're dropping the ball on that cause it's hard and we are not multilingual). but if a child is exposed to another language when they are young, they will learn it much faster than when they are older. if the person needs to learn a language later in life, it often takes months to even get started and years to master.
we just want to make sure that we give her all the tools we can that she might need to succeed at whatever she puts her energy towards later in life.
dsquier - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
I appreciate Anandtech trying to broaden it's scope, as a long-time reader I'd prefer the site not group personal blog entries under the "More Reviews" section.No offense to Derek or the other staff, but when four of the last ten items under "More Reviews" are personal blog entries, it starts to muddy the waters between your excellent reviews and personal opinions.
Otherwise, keep up the good work!
DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link
thanks for the input ... i wanted to see how some of these topics struck people though. the goal isn't to take anything away, just to build up. and for the most part i've gotten good responses to these blog posts.so i may post more frequently, but i also may skip moving some of them to the front page (which we have the ability to do).